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Alexander

Thanks Monte. Broadening our idea of salvation to saving folks from injustice is the crux of following Jesus: making that kin-dom real here and now.

I wonder, what would happen if Adventist kids (and leaders) took these words seriously?

"To say that I believe the ultimate purpose of Jesus is to have a world where is no more prejudice and injustice and then ignore the problems of racial, ethnic, gender and other injustice as they exist today is to live a lie."

Now that's a movement. . .

Johnny A. Ramirez

Very good.
Thanks!

Zane

Monte,

Although I agree with the point of your past, i.e. Christians should care about the world/society we live in and work for its good, I'm not so sure how evident ("simple" as you put it) this is to your average Adventist.

Our imminent, literal eschatology leads people to believe that all our efforts for justice/good in this life are, in the end, futile. In the end (very soon) it will all be destroyed and literally recreated by God. This is the "advent hope." What is the point of making an effort now? Our efforts should go into our own sanctification and "evangelizing" people so they can be saved.

I'm not saying that I agree with this line of reasoning, just that it is common and consistent with an eschatological views held by our church.

It seems to me that either we must rework our understanding of Revelation, i.e "fire" is symbolic for "purification" instead of destruction, and "holiness" as love of neighbor instead of our own personal purity.

Raul Batista

As I was reading Isaiah 65 recently I came upon these familiar words that are often correlated with the visions of the New Earth in the NT, and realized that the writer did not necessarily infer endless life, just very long life.

17 "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind." ...
20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed."

While it has been argued that it makes no sense that this perfect afterlife, this New Reality, is to be a mortal one, no matter how extended it may be, it's strange that this very important concept of God's love for those created in his own image, was not revealed to his chosen people in OT times.

It is said by some that this belief in an afterlife deveveloped among the Pharisees during the intertestamental period. Was this from an optimistic reading of these texts and one or two others, in Job or Daniel?

Human beings, whether pagan, secular, or monotheistic want live forever. At least those who are enjoying this life to a significant degree. Others, of course, are grateful that after 80 or so years, they can transit into a phase without struggle, without ill health that often goes with old age, or other imperfections.

Why the prophets of the OT did not focus on an endless life, but rather, focused on large families substituting for a form of immortality, is perplexing.

Did the Greek view of an afterlife and of perfect forms in the world to come imperfectly glimpsed in this life--Now we see through a glass darkly-- influence the Christian view of a life after death in any way?

Elaine

Excellent discussion of Adventist eschatological beliefs, Monte.

Sadly, we have too often ignored Jesus' teachings that the "Kingdom of God is Here and Now" but have focused on "pie-in-the-sky in the sweet-bye-and-bye" which has almost completely ignored the world around us; even castigated as the "Social Gospel" and something Adventists, who expect a soon Second Coming, have no time to waste in working for justice now.

The paradigm did not begin with Constantine. Reading the NT, it was very prominently proclaimed: that salvation, Heaven, and final restoration was to be eagerly looked for, in the very near future.

The Isaiah texts, as I have understood them,are NOT speaking of the New Earth as in the Second Coming, but what the Jews could finally expect once they were able to enjoy "The Promised Land" which had always been their goal: a land where no tears would be shed and posited the eschatological hope of the Jews to once more be in Zion and their enemies will be utterly desetroyed, "their worm will not die nor their fire go out; they will be loathsome to all mankind (66:24).

It has been re-interpreted to reflect hope of the 2nd coming, but like many other OT prophecies, its original intent was anticipated much earlier.

There are evidences from early Egyptian tombs and other cultures, all indicating a belief in an afterlife. It was probably not until the intertestamental period when this was inculcated in Jewish belief; as previously, the hope for all the patriarchs was in land and progeny, with no mention of an afterlife. It would be impossible for the Hebrew culture not to have been influenced by their neighbors, and there is ample evidence showing that this occurred.

Monte Sahlin

Zane, you make a good point. I do not contend that we should work for social justice, to overcome disease, etc., because we can achieve those ends without God's help, but because it is God's will. If we do not work for social justice and a better quality of life for all, then we demonstrate that we really are not in agreement with God's purposes and it is futile to expect God to rescue me if I don't agree with His purposes. For a Christian to focus on my own sanctification because very soon God will come and destroy all things is morally the same as the hedonist who says, "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die."

I agree that many believers are caught up in this self-centered, dualistic version of the advent hope, but is it the genuine thing? I am not willing to agree that this is consistent with the eschatological views held by the Adventist Church. I think it is a misunderstanding of Adventist faith. Remember, the founders believed strongly in anti-slavery, prohibition and other social justice causes of their time. They saw no inconsistency between their investment in social justice and their belief in the advent hope. The more recent view that you cite is really the result of a corruption of Adventist faith that came in from Christian fundamentalists in the 1920s and 1930s.

I would argue that the understanding of Revelation you propose as "reworked" is, in fact, consistent with the original and official interpretation of those texts, not a revision. The revised view is the one that you cite as common among many believers today. I know this is a difficult thing for the average church member to comprehend, but after careful study of the historical record, I have come to this conclusion.

Zane

Monte,

Thanks for your response. I do find it very interesting that the early Adventists were so involved in the social justice causes of their time.

In my earlier comment I trying to say that "the recent view" is the one that most Adventists subscribe to; it is the one that we hear going to church (The world is falling apart...This shows us it is the end times...we have to get ready), the one new members hear if they join the church through an "evangelistic" campaign...I think think this is further supported by Ellen White's eschatological writings, which is the portion of her writings (unfortunately) many Adventists seem to be most interested in.

All this works against the vision of social activism you articulate in the church (which I agree with).

I'm suggesting that this popular understanding must be "reworked" and doing this will be complex. It must be done on all the levels I've spoken of above...preaching, evangelism, and theology (which undergirds this.) Only then will we systemic change.

Monte

Zane, you are right, there the majority of Adventists today have heard a dualistic, fundamentalist view of apocalytic scripture and Second Advent, and they assume it is _the_ Adventist view ... despite the reality of our official positions and what is taught at the seminary, etc. Evangelists have done much harm in this direction, many of them seeming to remember nothing from their seminary classes. I think it is because we have for pragmatic reasons bought into a certain kind of psychology that serves to motivate some people to join the church out of fear. And it will take considerable re-education to move members away from this approach. Some will likely never make the move. I have a feeling that some of the most disappointed people in the resurrection will be those that Christ pictures in Matthew 25:44-46 who clearly went to their rest devout believers in the return of Christ, but failed to grasp what His mission is all about.

Chris

Monte,
Permit me to use the other R word. It’s reformation beyond the normal personal revival, where our ethical framework would be broaden beyond our usual ,limited selfish perspective and include the needed component of Biblical social justice.
In most of the Revelation presentation I have witnessed, there is a decoupling of God’s covenant love and presence with His people to the terrifying scenes of the final conflict. Our triumphant Apha & Omega leader or gentle Savior knocking at the door in a persuasive matter seem absent or distant at best. Just like pharaoh or Goliath do not get headline billing why should fear-infested monsters get top billing?
Folks have to be confident in their personal salvation and God’s covenant love , especially in troubling times. When this occurs, transformation from a crowd of individuals who will scatter when trouble visits, to a community of believers with a super-glue familial bond, that will be truly salt and light As we enter a age with new communication vehicles, let’s portray a more faith building representation of our Savior that will inspire a renewal of Adventist glorious heritage.

Monte

Chris, I think the images that one sees in Revelation are related to the power position of the viewer. What you bring to the text conditions what you see. The text begins by very clearly stating that it is intended to be a "revelation of Jesus Christ" (1:1). We, today, often see beasts and a Christ that is violent, fiery because we live in the most powerful country in the world and are relatively powerful people (middle class, professionals). The Christians at the time were a persecuted minority and even today oppressed peoples see in Revelation the images of a God who is on their side and who fights on their behalf with the promise that He will overcome their oppressors, cleanse the world of poverty and injustice and establish a new world in which they can be full participants. To fully understand the Bible apocalyptic, we must identify with the cause of the powerless, the poor and suffering.

Chris

Monte,
I say amen to your keen insight. I was attempting to spotlight how one’s perspective is formed. I am suggesting a prayerful review of the teaching vehicles and images that we currently use . For example another dominant theme of Revelation and the new earth is worship. My limited observation informs me that Christian practice here, is mostly reduced to private devotions and congregational expressions. Within the Adventist community , true worship is principally defined by the rightness of the day of worship. This is good but insufficient in meeting the Biblical mandate that includes the Godly works of head and heart. i.e. social justice When our community begin to practice such 24/7 worship discipline, what a revival that would be!

Monte

Chris, you are right on! Isaiah 58-61, which are also apocalyptic texts, make it clear that the worship God wants is not private devotions nor corporate ritual so much as just and compassionate lives. In fact, it would seem to be a fair summary to say that in order for private devotions and/or corporate ceremonies to be authentically worship, they must lead to just and compassionate living.

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